cross-posted from: https://lemmy.ml/post/16133154
Link to original Tweet: https://x.com/DavidZipper/status/1795048724021862898
cross-posted from: https://lemmy.ml/post/16133154
Link to original Tweet: https://x.com/DavidZipper/status/1795048724021862898
I skimmed the picture first, and thought you were talking about escooters which are terrible, ebikes are great though.
Why do you think escooters are terrible?
I think that e-bikes and e-scooters are misrepresented by few a-holes who makes motorbikes from them.
Yes when you brake the law and are going 30 km/h in a bike lane you are a-hole but most of them are ok.
In California the speed limit is now very high for class III e-scooters, 28 mph (45 km/h). And I think a lot of e-bike riders, who can’t even get close to that speed, assume that e-scooter riders are “breaking the law” when they get passed up by them. But it’s allowed, at least here.
45km/h e-scooter ?? Those things with tiny wheels where you stand on a small platform ?
They must have a death wish for that. 45km/h on a bicycle (electric or road bike) is already a bit too fast in most situations.
Between 35 and 38km/h is my perfect spot for riding in cities and is the usual speed on flat of a good road bike (not rode by a professional, those guys are crazy fast).
I think there is a Northern Europe country (ofc it’s Northern Europe…) where the limit isn’t 25 and 45 but 38.
If we had one unique class at 38km/h the world would be a better place.
They go much faster than that if you’re willing to drop 5 or 6k. There’s a reason youtubers wear full riding gear on some of them.
It’s stupid but I understand. At these speeds you shouldn’t be allowed to ride there. When you don’t have to make an effort to get to this speed it is easy to lose track how fast you actually going. When you ride on bike path it is common to slow under 20km/h when it is full.
Do you have a reference for “class 3 e-scooters”? My understanding of the California Vehicle Code is that the class system only applies to bicycles with pedals, per CVC 312.5.
Whereas e-scooters – the things that Bird and Lime rent through their app – exist under CVC 407.5, which previously covered the older, gasoline-powered 50 cc types of scooters. But apparently the law has now completed written out the gas-powered ones, only mentioning electric-powered “motorized scooters”.
Strictly speaking, there isn’t a requirement in the law for e-scooters to have a speed governor, whereas ebikes must have one, either 20 mph (32 kph) or 28 mph (45 kph). Instead, riders of e-scooters are subject to a speed limit of 15 mph (25 kph), a stalwart from the days of the gas-powered scooters.
The key distinction here is that an ebike over-speeding beyond its class rating is an equipment violation, akin to an automobile without operational brake lights. But an e-scooter over-speeding beyond 15 mph is a moving violation, potentially incurring points on the rider’s driving license – if they have one – and can impact auto insurance rates, somewhat bizarrely.
I’m not saying CA law is fair to e-scooters – it’s not – but I can’t see a legal scenario where an e-scooter can overtake an ebike rider if both are operating at full legal limits.
I have a Segway C80. It has tiny, but functional pedals. It looks very much like a scooter though, like a mini Vespa. I believe mine is a class II factory, but the governor can be lifted to 28 mph to make it a class III. I assumed that’s what was meant by “e-scooter,” but I guess you’re talking about another kind of vehicle that entirely lacks the pedals. I had thought a “real” e-scooter required a motorcycle license since those can reach freeway speeds and are above 750W.
Ah, now I understand what you mean. Yes, the stock C80 would indeed legally be a Class 2 ebike in California, by virtue of its operable pedals, whether or not it’s actually practical to use the pedals. That the marketing material suggests the C80 is used primarily with its throttle is no different than other Class 2 ebikes which are often ridden throttle-only, as many city dwellers have come to fear.
As for the unlock to Class 3, I wonder how they do that: California’s Class 3 does not allow throttle-only operation, requiring some degree of pedal input.
The spectrum of two-wheelers in California include: bicycles, ebikes (class 1, 2, 3), scooters, mopeds (CVC 406), motor-driven cycles, and motorcycles (aka motorbikes; CVC 400)
The “moped” category, one which has almost been forgotten to the 1970s, has seen a resurgence: the now-updated law recognizes 30 mph, electric, 4 HP (3 kW) max two- or three-wheelers. These mopeds are street legal, bike lane legal, don’t have annual registration, no insurance requirement, but do need an M1/M2 license. These CVC 406 mopeds are not freeway legal, but darn if they’re not incredibly useful for in-town riding.
I could get myself an electric dirt bike and plates for it, 100% legally.
Many e-scooters IME are driven by idiots with a DUI. And they’re exploiting a loophole that lets you drive on the roads at road speeds even if you’ve lost your license for drunk driving.
E-bikes are awesome though!
Here (in EU) I know lots of people who use them legitimately, but no one checks for removal of speed limiter.
Now at least they have to have insurance so it may decrease the number of a-holes because it is easy to check.
That’s a bit of a stretch. They aren’t great, but they’re still better than a car, and a lot of the disadvantage is because of poor infrastructure and lack of courtesy by a lot of e-scooter riders. One of those is easier to fix than the other.
E-bikes are way better than e-scooters, though, and I’d say e-bikes are more versatile.
There are two kinds of escooters, the rentable, and personal.
The rentable escooter are absolute shit, they are scattered over cities, making is difficult for disabled people to get by, they promote use without helmets which increase severity and frequency of accidents, they also are driven recklessly.
The personal escooters are mostly fine, people drive them less recklessly, often wear helmets and in general take better care of them.
Both types are bad in that they move people away from existing public transport lowering demand meaning that public transport gets less money which lowers the quallity and again moves people away from public transport.
Ebikes doesn’t have that direct cause and affect as they mostly replace cars, ebikes also tend to have less severe accidents as the result of the combination of larger wheels with better banace, a better riding possition with a lower center of gravity again improving balance
There’s a lack of infrastructure to accommodate rental scooters which cause the problems you mentioned. Having safe places to ride (i.e bike lanes) and designated places to park them would solve these issues. I could also argue that cars do all the same things.
Reducing demand for public transport is a good thing in a developed city. You want there to be more space for people that aren’t going to choose micromobility, which is much cheaper for a city to provide more capacity for.
I’d be interested to see some research into your theory of ebikes replacing more car journeys and escooters replacing more public transport journeys.
I agree with your points on why ebikes are safer, but scooters are also more compact and therefore easier to transport and store when not riding, and the safety issue is really solved by having safe places to ride. Having the choice available is important because different people have different priorities and preferences.
Thr lack of infrastructure for rental scooters is intentional though. It makes their overhead non-existent while making their scooters the city’s problem. The Netherlands figured out how to do bike rentals decades ago, but just leaving a bike/scooter wherever is a menace to the community. People used to keave them in my yard or the middle of the sidewalk until my town banned them. Personal scooters are fine, but Bird and Lime are terrible.
Bike rental in the Netherlands is great for certain uses but not for others. You can’t use the OV-fiets as a tourist, and you generally have to take them back to where you got them from.
Docked systems are better, and you can remove most of the cost of the docks by doing the “dockless docks” where you just have to return them to designated areas. This can work for both bikes and scooters.
Companies like bird & lime take advantage of the lack of regulations, but there’s clearly a demand. Cities can take advantage of this by regulating, providing infrastructure, and charging the companies to operate, things already done for cars.
I live in Taipei and it’s also pretty dense and even tho we have one of the best transit systems, an escooter is much better for the last leg of the trip.
And now the incentive for the public transport company to improve last mile service is gone.
Why would you expect public transport to take you the last step?
Why would you not have a bus stop within walking distance of your destination?
That seems like a groundless distinction.
I just posted a comment about my reasons for making the distinction in this thread.
EDIT, why is this being downvoted? I get that you may disagree with my viewpoints, downvote them if you must, but this is simply a comment letting a user know that I posted an explanation.
Your distinctions are invalid.
My city has rental bikes that work similarly to rental escooters. Are they now bad?
People here use helmets with them, same for rental scooters, which have designated parking areas here, same as bikes.
Neither moves people away from transit. They are a last mile vehicle that people use to get to and from transit hubs, or to do short trips that would take longer to do by transit.
Not to mention that this is a stupid argument. Multimodal transit is the highest form of public transit. Only idiots want to replace all private vehicle ownership with public systems or all cars with mass transit. The greatest transit capacity is achieved when deploying all modes simultaneously.
Your distinctions are based on how something happens to be utilized around your local area, and the etiquette that has (or rather hasn’t) developed around using a given vehicle.
There is nothing about electric scooters that stops them from being used in an equally reasonable manner as any other mode of travel.
Your problem is with local norms and people. Not the vehicle type.
If the rentable bikes are just scattered throughout the city with no regard for pedestrians or traffic, then yes, they are bad.
If that doesn’t happen, then no, they are fine.
Here in Stockholm the transit authority has noticed a shift from public transport toward escooters, it seems to have stabalized for now, but that could easily change.
Our healthcare system has also noticed a big uptick in patients who has had their jaw smashed, all from escooter accidents, people have been run down and have been injured by escooter drivers, some has even died.
I am happy that it works for you, but in my experience rentable escooters is just plain dumb.