• 5 Posts
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Joined 1 year ago
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Cake day: June 23rd, 2023

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  • Some of the more extreme-minded liberals do a good enough job at sabotaging themselves and the movements they are a part of, without the need for malicious saboteurs. Like Atheist+ or progressive stack.

    Then again, Russians orgs are out there, trying to influence politic movements and sabotage others. GamerGate was an entire sea of political actors, journalists, influencers, and Russian agents, trying to push their own narratives to the point of mass disinformation from both sides, with the general public on either side confused and angry at the other’s responses.


  • Defund means to essentially get rid of a department or thing. The phrase “defend the police” means “get rid of the police”. It doesn’t matter if there’s some cartoon to re-explain away the phrase or a bunch of other people trying to re-define the English language. English is English, and words have meaning.

    The “defund the police” movement failed because us liberals don’t fucking understand marketing. Like, at all. I can’t count the number of times some liberal movement crops up with their slogan and Republicans turn that slogan against them because nobody spent the ten minutes time to think about how that phrase or thing could be abused. For example, that brief time when the LGBT movement wanted to rename themselves to LGBTQIA2SUVWTFBBQ? Seriously?!?

    It’s like naming your baby “Assman McAssface” and wondering why he gets bullied in school.








  • My point was that there are large numbers of Palestinians who have much more recent grievances than 70 years – like dead relatives of all ages, or lost homes, within their lifetime.

    Which all stem from that original conflict from 1947. A wave of hatred against the Jews who took their country, which spawned more violence, not all of it balanced, which spawns more terrorism, which spawns more violence, until we get to today.


  • You are pleased to use the devastation and fragmentation and discoordination of a region which used to be connected and prosperous as some sort of gotcha against Palestine’s legitimacy- In all ignorance of the fact israel inflicted that devastation and fragmentation, ensured that the only coordination could be underground, with the necessary help of US dollars.

    Which is, again, ancient history. Israel was established as a nation after the Six Day War. It doesn’t matter how wrong that war was, or why it was done, or how it was done. It was done, and it was done over 70 years ago. Borders are established most of the time through bloody conflict, so this is not something that is suddenly unique to Israel.

    for Palestinian independence

    Which is what? Which borders do you agree are Palestine? Is it:

    1. The West Bank? Sound fine to me. Maybe they should start pushing this with the UN and officially ratify it?
    2. The West Bank and Gaza Strip? No. They can’t properly manage two separate landmasses like that. And even when they had the chance to accept that accord, they rejected it.
    3. The entirely of Israel, West Bank, and Gaza. Fuck no. This is what I’m talking about when it comes to ancient grudges. They fought a war and lost. It happened. Israel formed. Ancient history.

    That support only continues because of the strategic and material advantage of having a hold on Suez shipping

    Are you actually serious? You think the entirety of the Israeli independence was because of a shipping lane? Not the fact that Jerusalem is in the center, or that a bunch of displaced Jews wanted to form their own state, or the fact that there have been several crusades to take back Jerusalem for centuries? In fact, I will accept almost any religious-based argument you give me. But, not because of a fucking shipping lane.

    And as far as continued support, let’s not forget that there’s still a bunch of nukes pointed at Russia from Israel. Why do you think the Cuba Missile Crisis happened?

    is that remnant of the ottoman empire

    I… ummm, I’m going to have to stop right there. The Ottoman Empire ended in 1922. You are, again, using ancient grudges to justify terrorism.

    What of their right to exist? Open war and guerilla war and terrorism- flying planes into skyscrapers: This is what they will take when they are denied the right to exist.

    Yeah, I shouldn’t have read any more. Now you’re calling 9/11 a justified act. This conversation is over.


  • I would say that we happen to be posting in an Internet forum, where we all have access to the Internet, and I could just look that up. But, it’s a more nuanced question that isn’t as easy to look up. According to Wikipedia, more than half are stateless and 21 percent of Israelis identify as Palestinians.

    But, I’m sure you’re leading this question into an answer that you already have a page up for, so let’s hear it.


  • As I pointed out in another post, using decades- or centuries-old arguments for sovereignty has been used as justification for terrorism. When bin Laden smashed a couple of planes into the Twin Towers, that’s exactly the kind of argument he used as justification.

    It’s not about moral dissonance. It’s about how hate spreads through ancient spites and grudges. The decades of failed peace attempts in the Middle East have been brought about by clinging on to these ancient grudges, and it’s exactly why Palestine has had much less of a standing in being officially recognized as a nation than Israel has.


  • From your initial comment it seems like the main misunderstanding is that nation states unilaterally declared by European powers in Africa and Western Asia from the nineteenth century until around the middle of the 20th century have been utterly disastrous to those places rather than being the only source of order in those places.

    Is this the starting volley of an argument that unfair colonization from the 1800s is justification for a nation’s lack of sovereignty?

    tend not to consider them as legitimate and more of an encroachment.

    Yes, there it is.